jason.. what is a rock yard???? sounds like a mountain side ...

see my post regarding zone 5.. newbie.. must haves.. losta of options there.. ken

PS: there are trees .. such as oaks.. and CONIFERS.. such as those having needles and cones ... do you have a preference?

in a rock yard I will be removing mt traditional grass yard and adding rock and sand to replace the grass then I will be decorating it with a tree and a bush or two and accent it with bark mulch and black sand and some drift wood and larger bolders. anyhow I need one ornimental tree to center the yard arround. I do not want trees with leaves or too messy. I have been leaning tword conifers as they are less messy. but I am open to any suggestions. the tree I have been looking the most in my research has been the Pinus thunbergii 'Thunderhead'. it seems to grow to the size and shape I am wanting but I am not sure just how messy this tree is. you just do not find much info on how much a tree shedds on the net or in books. I do know if it sheds too much those needles will end up down in the rocks and be not so easy to clean up. any one know some good sites I can go to that have good info on trees size shape including pics things like how much water they require and light?

Don't take this the wrong way, but it doesn't sound like you're an experienced gardener yet.

So I say, drive around your area and see what looks good and like what you want. That will give you an idea of what grows in your area. And help the zone 5 conifer people make suggestions about a conifer. Where do you live in Z5?

You seem really concerned about the "mess" a tree makes. Pine cones and needles may be comparable to oak leaves and acorns. If you're going for this minimalist landscape, Don't sweat the "mess". It won't be overwhelming. Buy a blower / vac. Cheaper than the lawn mower you wont need to cut your weird non-grass lawn. And your neighbors leaves will be in your yard anyway......

If I were in z5 I'd go for a dwarf / intermediate fir. Dense christmas tree shape. Does abies lasiocarpa var arizonica "compacta" grow there? I could never grow one here. I love the pictures Ive seen. Easily one of my favorites. Great looking conifer. Might cost some bucks to get a nice sized one.

yes I am in a zone5. and I didn't claim to be a experienced gardener. in fact I said I was a newbe that didn't have a green thumb looking for advice. as far as my wierd rock yard I have seen alot more and more people arround here doing this and I think it looks good.

LOL. Well no good deed goes unpunished. May I politely suggest you unwad your pretty pink panties and re-read what I wrote? I'm not trying to offend you.

If you have one small tree, irrespective of type, the mess shouldn't be a big deal.

Zone 5 isn't a place. It describes many places. And it doesn't describe them well. In other words, not every zone 5 is the same. Just like not every zone 8 is the same. I live in Zone 8 central Texas. Parts of Oregon, the United Kingdom, Japan, and California are Zone 8 too. I'd give different advice to someone in California than I would in Texas and I wouldn't give any advice to someone in Japan because, despite the fact that we are forever bonded by our Z8 designation, there's more to it than that. That's why I asked.

replacing grass with other materials (rock, mulch, etc) is in vogue here as well. Grass needs water during the summer. Here that's a big deal to some people. Is it a big deal in your mysterious z5? If not, grass is nice. But if you like rocks knock yourself out. Roll around on your luxurious rock 'lawn' and forget how to spell the five or six words you spelled correctly.

Don't ask people for help and get all PMS'y because you don't understand their sound practical advice.

Abies nordmanniana 'Tortifolia' - all I've read is the "don't take this wrong - and the don't get PSM'y part" so don't take me wrong either! It's a nice tree, very open horizontal branching and beautiful needles with spring needles and growth a golden contrast. And in 20 years it should be less than 16 feet tall and less than 8 feet in width as the 10 year growth rate in zone 5 will produce a tree about 6 feet tall and 3 feet wide or, a little taller and wider. Knarled trunk, not included.

Dax

Pinus t. 'Thunderhead" will shed a fair amount of inside needles every year. Typical for most pines.

Will accumulate heavy snow loads that need to be cleaned out, if not limb breakage will occur

Don't let this stop you from having this conifer. A show stopper. Go for it.

finally some good info without insulting me. thanks. I am leaning tword a Pinus t. 'Thunderhead' but am going to research more to see what else is out there. will the Thunderhead grow up to have a exposed trunk. or can I prune it to have one. also will it acccept heavy pruning as all the pics I have seen of it have been pretty dense foliage and I prefer a open look. dose the trunk get thick with age or stay thin. sorry for all the questions but I am just trying to find the right tree with the look I am looking for. I am looking at other options too. I will look up the Abies nordmanniana 'Tortifolia' and see if it is what I might be looking for. there is just a outragous number of trees out there hard to research them all. I know I want to stick with an evergreen so far every thing I have found I like has been a pine. but I have not researched all the other options out there. I live in eastern washington state. thanks for the info about the snow loads. we do get alot of snow sometimes here.

As you can see in the photos, Pinus t. 'Thunderhead' has a very dense habit. I don't see why you can't selectively prune out limbs to open it up.
As for trunk growth I have no idea. Proportional to rest of conifer growth I would assume.
If you are going to open it up pick one with an interesting trunk that will provide more character to grab your attention.

Dave
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thanks for the pics. that is one nice tree. the best pics I have seen so far. and the best looking one I have see yet too. I have seen several pics of ones that seem more upright and straight which I do not like as much as yours which seems to have more uneven growth and a bit more gnarly. I would imagine this would not be a tree I would want to buy online unless I could see actual pictures. thanks again for the pics. I think you sold me on this tree. the only thing I can think of that might steer me away is if I find that it has a thin trunk as I would like to open it up some to expose the limbs and trunk and shape it some. I may post another post seeing if any one has opened up a thunderhead to expose the trunk. and what it looked like.

well I emailed a nursery and asked about the trunk of this tree. they said this tree grows as a multi stemmed shrub rather than a single trunked tree. so I am thinking this rules this out as my tree but I still think it is a nice tree. any other ideas? I have also looked at the Pinus parviflora ÂPygmy Yatsubusa but I am not sure this is the right tree either. I know there is alot of smaller versions of the japanese white red or black pine out there but can not find alot of info on them. any other ideas?

Pinus thunbergii is on the edge in zone 5, and very susceptible to Pine Wilt Nematode, so even in warmer zones they often die in 20 - 25 years. I'd look into other pines that do well in your area if that's a problem there. Try to find a good local nursery that knows your soil, climate, and pests.

Pruning pines is pretty easy, but to do it well... keeping the tree healthy and looking good... requires some skill. Study before you clip.

Good luck and enjoy!

Pinus t. 'Thunderhead' does not grow as a multi-stemmed shrub. Plant revolves from a single leader.

Bad info, that nursery should stick to selling annuals or maybe nothing at all.

PWN could be a issue for you. You need to check. It only effects Scot's and Austrian Pines here.

Dave

that is great info. thanks I will check to see if PWN is a problem. as far as being on the edge in zone 5. I will take precautions and cover it if temps are to fall below -10 F. which dose happen but not that often. of coarse this will be hard if the tree gets too big. I read on here somewhere someone said this tree will grow to 16+ feet. but all the nurseries claim 8 to 10 feet. any one know just how big they usually get. I know it varies by conditions. oh and as for pruning I dont have much experience but I have read some in books and will study further especially sense I plan to prune to shape which is more extensive than occational pruning. will pruning say half of the branches of this tree in one sitting be too much for this tree to handle or should I spread this over time?

most height estimates are for 10 years .... use the ACS website to learn about conifers in the articles.. and use the database to learn about GROWTH RATES ... once 'established' they grow a certain amount each year. ... e.g. say one foot per year .... so if you buy a one footer in a one gal pot... in 10 years .... 10 feet .. go figure.. lol ... in year 11. 11 feet ... ad nauseum forever ... no tree EVER stops at some magical height ...

if you HAVE TO HAVE IT STAY SMALL . ... you would opt for a MINI ... which grows 1 inch per year .... but then you will be long gone before it ever, if ever, reaches 10 feet .....

dwarf is in between.. but confuses a lot of peeps ... if momma is 387 feet tall ... a dwarf SELECTION of her can get to 200 feet tall ... so don't be drawn in with the term .. unless you do all the research ...

i have at least 10 thunbergii in my zone 5 ... whipping winter wind yard near Ann Arbor MI .... they are just fine ...

and i wouldn't focus too much on disease and critters .... all plants have POTENTIAL problems.. don't let that scare you away ...

where exactly are you????

ken

PS: one of my current faves.. i need to update with a new picture .... but here it is this spring

Pinus thunbergii 'Mini Mounds'
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Here is a link that might be useful: read all the articles on basic conifer stuff.. and use the database ..

nice tree but I could not find it listed. how fast dose it grow? although I still think I like the Pinus t. 'Thunderhead'. I think I would prefer a 6-8 inch growth rate in a tree. I am not sure the thunderhead is the right way to go as I think I prefer a more umbrella like shape. and more open. I am not sure if it would be be right to prune the heck out of this tree to make it grow like that or find something that grows more like this normaly. plus I am not sure what kind of trunk I would end up with. I think the look I would like to end up with is a larger version of what you see in many bonsai trees. a thick open trunk growing up to a wide open canopy above. I think pine looks best. I prefer a tree that dose not get too big 20+ feet. but I supose I could always prune biger tree to keep it small if that is possible. any one know a tree that grows more like described naturally? or should I just buy a japanese red white or black pine and just prune it to the shape and size I like?

in my search for a tree fitting my description above I came across the Pinus densiflora 'Umbraculifera' it seems to grow naturally like I described above but it dose tend to have multiple trunks from what I have read. but I have seen it with one trunk so I am assuming it can take differant forms or be trained to have one trunk. dose any one have any experience with this tree?

Here are some Pinus parviflora:
Pinus parviflora 'Cleary'
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'Cleary' at another setting:

Pinus parviflora 'Gimborn's Ideal'

Pinus parviflora 'Ei-ko-nishiki'
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Pinus parviflora 'Bergman'
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Pinus parviflora 'Fukuzumi'

Pinus koraiensis 'Silveray'

Pinus koraiensis 'Morris Blue'

Pinus koraiensis 'Rowe Arboretum'

Pinus contorta 'Taylor's Sunburst'
UBC Conifer Photo Gallery 'Taylor's Sunburst'

Pinus thunbergii 'Thunderhead' - could very well be pruned.
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Dax

I read this on a bathroom wall somewhere......seems appropriate.

"Here I sit, cheeks a flexin'
Just gave birth to a Texan."

In zone 5 we capitalize the first word in every sentence.....this isn't English class....speaking of class, you have none at all.

"speaking of class, you have none at all."

Ouch. Now you've hurt my feelings Charlotte. The entire state of Texas will lose sleep now that we have earned your scorn.

And what a gross limmerick. What truck stops are you reading in these days?

How you two know each other?

Who's smart here?

Later.

Conifers you have alot of nice trees. that Pinus contorta 'Taylor's Sunburst' , do you have that tied pulling it into a more upright growth than it would grow on its own? you don't happen to have any Pinus densiflora 'Umbraculifera'? I have seen several pics of this tree in various forms. it seems to vary its form alot from tree to tree.

Taylor's Sunburst is what I would choose. It's fantastic. It goes upright on it's own. A smaller tree if it's creaking left or right then stake it, otherwise you'll get what you see above. And they aren't mine, I just photograph them usually in Arboreta settings, but thanks!

That Pinus parviflora 'Cleary' is nice too by the way. No 'Umbraculifera' except trunk photos but I'll check to see if I might have one I don't know about.

Dax

I think 'Umbraculifera' and 'Tanyosho' are one and the same. There is always some variance in form based on a number of factors, but densiflora seems particularly vulnerable to shapining with shears. Japanese garden look, you know.

tj

Here is a link that might be useful: Tanyosho

Gorgeous pics Dax & TJ. That Tanyosho is stunning. Wonder if it would work for that windswept looking I read you guys talking about? Yes, I'm in lust for that windswept after reading here. I want to do that to a pine...someday, when I have about 10 years under my belt with conifers. I would say 30 years under my belt, but I'll probably be dead by then. :-)