Pinus parviflora 'Aoi' repotting

[Cherubina]

I just bought this, and it had an Iseli tag. The graft had some needles on it that the nurseryman broke off, as they would become too dominant, but I did get to see them. It was a fine, yellowish green looking set of needles.
My question is, can I re-pot now? I have everything I need, and I'd just like to move it from the 8" tall round nursery plastic to a 10" round heavier sturdier pot, and let it grow. Can I wire it a little also, or would that be too much abuse?
As I write this I'm actively trying to find out what the graft species was.

Thanks fellow nuts!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

It's still summer where I am, the wrong season to do anything to pines when it comes to wiring and repotting.
Do the wire in fall or late winter and the repotting in spring.
For now, keep it alive and thriving, let it adjust to its new living conditions.

 

[Paradox]

My question is, can I re-pot now?

No. Early spring as the bud start to swell is repotting time, not 2 months before onset of late fall/Winter

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Greetings and Welcome Aboard Bonsai Nut!

Concur, wire White Pines in the Fall - Early winter is the normal routine for wiring here.

Repotting is as @Paradox mentioned, when the buds begin to swell. This was early March in zone 8b, so unless your tree is greenhoused, expect to wait.

Waiting is actually a good thing for a new hobbyist. I know when I was new I was just itching to get my hands on things. Luckily, or perhaps not so lucky, I was laid up and had to wait.

In any event, waiting gives one time to research one’s trees horticultural needs, study wiring techniques and plan think about different types of styling. Setting the tree’s primary structure properly will be your most important initial wiring task. Please take your time and do this task well as it can’t be changed easily!

btw:If its and Iseli tree, one can be sure the rootstock is very good and graft well done. They have a Japanese trained master running the show.

Good Luck!
DSD sends

 

[MaciekA]

I have an Aoi JWP (also from Iseli) that I've been growing for a few years. I always repot it in spring and it's always responded very well. This is a super strong genetic of JWP.

 

[Cherubina]

Thank you all! Some really good news here, I'm glad I grabbed this tree without delay. I'm excited about it and yes, a bit anxious to get to work, but I'll take your advice. The nursery people told me they re-pot at all times of year. They also use mycorrhizal fungi and rhizosphere bacteria soil inoculants.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Repotting in soil as a landscape tree, sure as long as one provides proper care.

….Repotting as a bonsai…. Timing and experience with a species is everything.

Good luck with this tree
DSD sends

 

[MaciekA]

Followup: I want to say again this cultivar is really really strong and vigorous. Folks are excited about Zuisho, and maybe Aoi is cut from a not too dissimilar cloth — dwarf genetic with compact bud clustering, yet strong. Four years of ups and downs and various weather records both cold and hot and not even so much as a single discolored needle.

I didn’t leave it in Iseli soil though which IMO is why it’s in good shape. I got to work transitioning it to aggregate (mostly pumice/lava) in a mid-sized pond basket as soon as it entered its first repotting window after acquisition. I followed up 2 years later with a vacuuming (with an actual drywet vac) out of the remaining original nursery soil in the core under the trunk base, replacing that volume of soil with my aggregate mix. My Aoi responded very well to that.

some suggestions with aoi:

- Start the transition to aggregate this upcoming spring. Don’t dawdle. Jump on the Iseli leftover vigor while it’s still in the tree and root recovery will be faster.
- Don’t prune yet, this cultivar/species is not in danger of getting away from you while you wait for recovery. Get at least half way into the transition before eroding your sacrificial leader, it will be worth the wait, working with an amazingly strong JWP on the other side of that wait.
- Keep a very very strong sacrificial leader during the 3 to 4 years spent getting out of nursery soil. Mine has always been kept very strong and bushy up top. The “poodle” I have on my Aoi is actually larger and bushier than the “keep” region of the tree below. I have a second backup leader I’m strengtening that I will switch to while eroding and slowing down the primary poodle. This is 4 years after acquisition and that may sound like a long time, but keeping lots of strong sacrificial growth means I’m speed-running this relative to where I’d be if I had caved to instant bonsai temptation.
- If you are careful and deliberate with your wiring I think it is a good idea to wire down all the primary branches (to reduce self shading and ensure interior shoots get stronger) as soon as you’ve figured out your front and future planting angle. I had very good luck with strengthening interior shoots with Aoi by lowering branches with wire. It was also a great way to temper my impatience because I could style (wire down) early and have something to analyze and study for design options while patiently waiting for root recovery and trunk thickening. Wiring down did not negatively impact recovery/etc.

When really really vigorous, the spring time apical shoots on this cultivar are out-of-this-world beautiful fractal cathedral spires. Get your camera ready.

 

[TrevorLarsen]

Japanese white pine Miyajima nursery stock.

I bought this tree for $160 today and had some questions I didn’t find here in other posts. This is my first JWP. I live in northern Utah so it is very dry which from what I have read JWP like less water but I am guessing the dry air will be a big challenge to keep the tree alive. My first main...

www.bonsainut.com

I posted this earlier this year it’s a different verity of JWP but also from Iseli. It is interesting how different to color is, mine is like blue and yours is bright green.

 

[HardBall]

I was kind of thinking the same thing. I have an 'Aoi' that is very blue (aoi means blue). Yours has those light green twisty needles...doesn't quite look like 'Aoi'...but I've only seen a couple and I'm no expert.

 

[Cherubina]

I have to admit, when I saw this sitting at the nursery I had a feeling it was mislabeled. It has a variegated coloring which could be blue, green and almost white, and the needles have a noticeable spiral whirl. It's the spiral whirl that makes me think it's another JWP variety... I can't remember where I've seen that before or what it's called, but a little research should find it.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

No worries. This is the Iseli Nursery write up of AOI - one of their colorful conifers

Aoi Japanese White Pine

Silvery blue on one side, green on the other, the long-enduring, straight needles of Pinus parviflora ‘Aoi’ give the naturally sculpted, upright tree a lush look. Sturdy branches display attractive silver-grey bark and loads of small cones.

and “Needles are curved distinctly upward bearing showy white stomatal bands (DSD-That’s why they are called White Pine) and persist for 3 years; their attractive bluish green color creates a fine display in the winter.”

Enjoy your tree!
DSD sends

 

[Cherubina]

No worries. This is the Iseli Nursery write up of AOI - one of their colorful conifers

Aoi Japanese White Pine

Silvery blue on one side, green on the other, the long-enduring, straight needles of Pinus parviflora ‘Aoi’ give the naturally sculpted, upright tree a lush look. Sturdy branches display attractive silver-grey bark and loads of small cones.

and “Needles are curved distinctly upward bearing showy white stomatal bands (DSD-That’s why they are called White Pine) and persist for 3 years; their attractive bluish green color creates a fine display in the winter.”

Enjoy your tree!
DSD sends

Thank you! Being that this is a 2 year old tree, it may not display the mature characteristics of Aoi, and a darker blue color may come later. But the color it has now is quite attractive, and to me, the spiral curve of the needles is exquisite-- all straight needles would be boring (to me.)

As it is now, it looks similar to: (!)

Pinus parviflora 'Bonnie Bergman' Japanese White Pine

Pinus parviflora ‘Bonnie Bergman’ Japanese White Pine for Sale at Best Price. Free Shipping on order over $150. Shop Online from Conifer Kingdom.

www.coniferkingdom.com

 

[MaciekA]

I'd maybe wait a bit before concluding that it's mislabelled. You will ultimately really see what this cultivar is actually supposed to look like when it has been fully transitioned to aggregate soil and is well-recovered in that state. Then the shoot density will start to increase. Right now you're looking at a jacked-up tree in commercial grow soil and it is growing spaghetti roots and elongating from all the watering and nutrition from the commercial nursery.

 

[Japonicus]

I bought a 'Bergman' last year from Conifer Kingdom. I'm not sad that it died when I planted it in ground.
It had the thickest ugliest candles I've ever seen on any WP including 100' tall EWP.
The branches were so much thicker, so out of scale to the nice needle length.

Twisted needles aren't prized among bonsai enthusiasts.
Here is the only identifying material I have, but it's just foliage that's mature, no candles, bark or pollen cones.

The one in my avatar I'm assuming is an Azuma of sorts, but I'll never really know.
I bought this JWP from a rare tree grafter on eBay, sold to me as Aoba Jo.
But when I potted it up, I found a plastic marker labeled Azuma Goyo hidden below the soil level.

Regardless, I love it and it should respond the same either way.
That said, I'm just trying to say that the chances of getting a definitive ID is slim
and you'll just have to love your tree no matter its name

 

[Cherubina]

I'd maybe wait a bit before concluding that it's mislabelled. You will ultimately really see what this cultivar is actually supposed to look like when it has been fully transitioned to aggregate soil and is well-recovered in that state. Then the shoot density will start to increase. Right now you're looking at a jacked-up tree in commercial grow soil and it is growing spaghetti roots and elongating from all the watering and nutrition from the commercial nursery.

I agree with you... I'm far from concluding anything. The spiral habit sure is soft and pretty. The first year growth is a little darker "blue".

 

[Cherubina]

I bought a 'Bergman' last year from Conifer Kingdom. I'm not sad that it died when I planted it in ground.
It had the thickest ugliest candles I've ever seen on any WP including 100' tall EWP.
The branches were so much thicker, so out of scale to the nice needle length.

Twisted needles aren't prized among bonsai enthusiasts.
Here is the only identifying material I have, but it's just foliage that's mature, no candles, bark or pollen cones.
View attachment 507045
The one in my avatar I'm assuming is an Azuma of sorts, but I'll never really know.
I bought this JWP from a rare tree grafter on eBay, sold to me as Aoba Jo.
But when I potted it up, I found a plastic marker labeled Azuma Goyo hidden below the soil level.
View attachment 507049View attachment 507050
Regardless, I love it and it should respond the same either way.
That said, I'm just trying to say that the chances of getting a definitive ID is slim
and you'll just have to love your tree no matter its name

Thank you! Good information and a laugh too.

 

[pandacular]

Followup: I want to say again this cultivar is really really strong and vigorous. Folks are excited about Zuisho, and maybe Aoi is cut from a not too dissimilar cloth — dwarf genetic with compact bud clustering, yet strong. Four years of ups and downs and various weather records both cold and hot and not even so much as a single discolored needle.

I didn’t leave it in Iseli soil though which IMO is why it’s in good shape. I got to work transitioning it to aggregate (mostly pumice/lava) in a mid-sized pond basket as soon as it entered its first repotting window after acquisition. I followed up 2 years later with a vacuuming (with an actual drywet vac) out of the remaining original nursery soil in the core under the trunk base, replacing that volume of soil with my aggregate mix. My Aoi responded very well to that.

some suggestions with aoi:

- Start the transition to aggregate this upcoming spring. Don’t dawdle. Jump on the Iseli leftover vigor while it’s still in the tree and root recovery will be faster.
- Don’t prune yet, this cultivar/species is not in danger of getting away from you while you wait for recovery. Get at least half way into the transition before eroding your sacrificial leader, it will be worth the wait, working with an amazingly strong JWP on the other side of that wait.
- Keep a very very strong sacrificial leader during the 3 to 4 years spent getting out of nursery soil. Mine has always been kept very strong and bushy up top. The “poodle” I have on my Aoi is actually larger and bushier than the “keep” region of the tree below. I have a second backup leader I’m strengtening that I will switch to while eroding and slowing down the primary poodle. This is 4 years after acquisition and that may sound like a long time, but keeping lots of strong sacrificial growth means I’m speed-running this relative to where I’d be if I had caved to instant bonsai temptation.
- If you are careful and deliberate with your wiring I think it is a good idea to wire down all the primary branches (to reduce self shading and ensure interior shoots get stronger) as soon as you’ve figured out your front and future planting angle. I had very good luck with strengthening interior shoots with Aoi by lowering branches with wire. It was also a great way to temper my impatience because I could style (wire down) early and have something to analyze and study for design options while patiently waiting for root recovery and trunk thickening. Wiring down did not negatively impact recovery/etc.

When really really vigorous, the spring time apical shoots on this cultivar are out-of-this-world beautiful fractal cathedral spires. Get your camera ready.

This is a great starting guide. I also picked an Aoi this fall and plan to follow this schema, more or less.

I have two questions, if you don't mind:
1) You mention not pruning it yet. Would it make sense to do some branch selection, and let some light into the interior this fall? I plan to repot mine in the fall and (eventually) chop it to about half height (currently about 30") but only a good while after the repot has taken. The general principle I think makes sense is to provide plenty of foliage to drive root growth after a repot.
2) What do you mean by poodle? I haven't heard that term...is it just the sacrificial part at the top? If so, I think my tree will be in a similar place.

 

[MaciekA]

@pandacular

For branch selection, I think it depends on the tree and if you're willing to post a pic I'd take a look. Either way, if it's incredibly dense, use your best judgement and maybe fix a few egregious spots, especially in your "keep regions", but while doing so, consider: In the PNW, you'd only be skipping a couple more weeks worth of thickening at most (i.e. not very much) before the 2024 repot.. i.e. measured in July grow-hours, that repot is a couple days from now. As soon as that repot happens, the thickening rate that would otherwise cause problems at the whorls will take a big dive, but any needle mass you do retain will improve the root recovery. In terms of letting light in, try to stage the branches in their lowered positions before deciding what you want to do at each whorl.

When you do that, if this is an Aoi, then there might be ridiculous densities of needles at some junctions, and you might ask yourself "is light even really gonna get in here either way?" I'm never afraid of cleaning needles out of crotches because that'll just attract more thickening there, it's dense and (in Aoi or Mugo etc) somewhat light-deprived anyway, and also I don't want/need future budding there. So you could do a tiny bit of cleanup of this nature and not feel bad about it. If you have one of those needle-rich junctions and are routing wire through there, that might be another motivation to do that (or to select branches out and make wiring more feasible).

For poodle, I am referring to a horizontal sacrifice branch or vertical sacrifice leader which is bare of needles along most of its length, however at the tip has a big bushy set of needles/shoots, and in Aoi, these will be foxtail-form shoots if the tree is vigorous (as opposed to lotus-flower-form shoots). If you are a mix of deliberate and lucky you can maintain a fairly big poodle on a JWP (or any pine) without slowing down or suppressing the retained region of the tree below too much. There will always be some vigor gradient between apical and basal regions, esp in JWP, but what I try to do from year to year is see how much I can get away with keeping on the poodle while retaining some minimum "vigor floor" on the shoots in the keep region of the tree. If growth becomes too weak down there while it is beautiful/foxtaily/lustrous/firm at the poodle, it may be time to reduce the poodle.

 

[pandacular]

I’ve attached photos from 4 sides.

You make a very good point of not having much growth time between now and the repot, and the repot slowing growth enough to make branch selection not gain too much. Perhaps I should consider a fall prune next year after the repot to set it up for 2025.

Regarding light balancing, i did pull out a HUGE amount of dead needles, which made it possible to see the trunk through some small gaps. Perhaps I should use guy wire to lower a number of branches; would that be something you would consider? It seems it would let me balance light and start to position some key branches.